The Attachment Style Episode
In this episode of Hot Girl Psychology, Deanna and Emahlea explore the world of ATTACHMENT STYLES. They break down what attachment styles are, where they come from, and how they can show up in our relationships, while diving into anxious, avoidant, disorganized, and secure attachment.
In this episode, the girlies unpack the patterns that keep us chasing, pulling away, or feeling safe and secure, while sharing their own experiences along the way. As always, tips and methods for healing are shared, realizations are had, and absolutely nothing is left on the table…
If you’ve ever struggled in relationships or want to learn about your own attachment style, this episode is for you.
The way that somebody with an anxious attachment style fears abandonment. Somebody with an avoidant attachment style fears rejection.
SPEAKER_01If you can find a level of security within yourself, you will move towards security with others. Mm-hmm. Inevitably. Yeah. Yes. Girl psychology. Hot girl psychology. Welcome to Hot Girl Psychology. We're a Girls Girl podcast where attractiveness and attachment wounds come together.
SPEAKER_03Here at Hot Girl Psychology, we're helping you become your highest and hottest self.
SPEAKER_01I'm Emily. I'm a startup founder and CEO and a registered dietitian, and I put the psycho and psychonutritionist. And I'm Deanna.
SPEAKER_03I'm a clinical psychotherapist and published arch romance author. I treat complex trauma by day and I live it by night. What's up, girlies? Hey.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Today's episode is one of my all-time favorite topics to talk about. I talk about it with everybody that I can. I literally wouldn't proselytize people about this. Your entire personality is based around it, literally. And like so is like everyone's. Yeah. It's attachment style. Okay. So let's tell everybody a little bit about what we're going to cover today.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So we're going to talk about what attachment styles are, who created them. And then we're going to give you some insight into the four main attachment styles. And we'll talk about what they look like, how they show up, how they're likely formed, some struggles that people will find in relationships with these attachment styles, and some core beliefs of these attachment styles. We'll also talk about which styles tend to pair with each other or attract each other. We'll talk about how to identify a partner's attachment style, how to understand, translate, and work with another person's attachment style. And lastly, we'll talk about how to move towards having a secure attachment style.
SPEAKER_01I love all of that. All of that sounds very interesting to me because my whole personality is attachment style. You heard it here first. Yes. Okay. So I feel like you are the best person to answer this question given your expertise as a clinical psychotherapist. What is an attachment style? Good question.
SPEAKER_03I think that attachment styles are a subconscious set of rules that you have for love and connection.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. A subconscious set of rules that you have for love and connection. Yes. Okay. Elaborate a little bit on that.
SPEAKER_03So they are essentially limiting beliefs that we are conditioned to have in early childhood depending on the types of relationships that we had with our closest caregivers. And so attachment styles are not permanent. They can change. However, from age zero to two or about three, attachment styles are formed, whether they are secure or insecure. A lot of times, of course, trauma, toxic relationships, life experience can change your attachment style. But also, like archetypes, we can flow in and out of them. They're not personality diagnoses by any means, but they're patterns that we experience in certain parts of our lives, and especially when it comes to closeness, to safety, to vulnerability.
SPEAKER_01Um just relating to others.
SPEAKER_03Yes, relating to others and kind of the survival responses that we have when relating to others and we're the survival.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I feel like they're like our relationship operating systems.
SPEAKER_00Love that.
SPEAKER_03And our survival strategies. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Because if you think about it, if they're formed within that first three years of life and really like within that first year of life, we come into this world in survival mode. And so you form these attachment styles in survival mode. Babies have absolute need. They rely exclusively on their caregivers for everything, for food, for attention, for touch, for warmth, for everything that they need. And that being formed during a time of absolute need is being formed during a time of survival.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. It's crazy to think about, but you are so young when you form that, when you form that blueprint.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03To answer the question of like, am I safe? And unfortunately, it depends on if your caregiver made you feel safe or not. And also somebody can be a really good caregiver and still create an insecure attachment style.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03In their children. So we'll talk about that, which is scary and that sucks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is. It is. And you know, it's interesting. I feel like there's so much like self-blame that uh, and this this is kind of my little soapbox piece of that about that, is there's so much blame that especially mothers give themselves. You know, mom guilt is like a no thing. Mom guilt is a good thing. But the reality is if your blind spots are ones that are informed by your upbringing, you're inevitably going to pass them down without meaning to, unless you somehow have gotten lucky enough to be intentional about it or you did go to therapy or something like that. But even then, your nervous system is constantly teaching you new things about what you haven't resolved from your childhood. And it always comes out in how you relate to your people around you, including your own child.
SPEAKER_03So I do think that you pass down like what your nervous system expects from love.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03And that happens so much with your child. And a lot of times, like you know how to be in a romantic relationship. There are movies about it. There's, you know, you don't know. Nobody knows how to be a parent. No. That's what I've I'm we're not parents, but I've heard many times that everyone's just like, you have no idea what you're doing, and there's no way to know, and no one can really explain it to you. Exactly. You know, so whatever your nervous system expects from love, you are going to pass that down in some sort of way.
SPEAKER_01Inevitably.
SPEAKER_03To your child. Yeah, inevitably. Even if you are intentional about it, sometimes too.
SPEAKER_01Yes, absolutely. And it, you know, and it takes intention to change your attachment style, right? And like it's interesting because and I I really um I work with a lot of mothers in that first like three years of their lives when it's just hell and chaos, and because that's that's a very important period of time for nutrition. Um I can imagine. Pardon, yeah, postpartum, and then baby learns how to eat real food, and then baby is refusing food and things like that. But when you're taking care of a creature that is in survival mode, when you're taking care of like a feral animal, when you're taking care of a baby, when you're taking care of an elderly adult, like those are all extremely vulnerable, dependent creatures. And if your way of relating to yourself is one where you don't feel the confidence, you don't feel that level of security, you're inevitably going to get pushed to your limit.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01And you're gonna get pushed to your limit no matter what, because that's just what being a caregiver is all about. It is a limit-pushing experience, but you're going to be pushed to your limit so much sooner if you don't have that level of security. And so, like learning, I wish that there was like some kind of like universal parenting class that people had to take so that they could like learn like, how do I reparent myself so I can parent my child effectively? Yes. And that's like a requirement for having a child. Literally, literally, yes. Like after you graduate from high school and go to college and do all that shit, you should like go back to parenting school. Yes. Like reparenting school and like parenting another school. Yes, yeah, yeah, 100%. So when did attachment styles start to become a thing? Like who came up with this? What do you know about like how we learned about these things?
SPEAKER_03What do you know about that? So I know that it was created by a woman named Mary Ainsworth. You're Ainsworth?
SPEAKER_01I say Ainsworth.
SPEAKER_03Einsworth. I say Ainsworth. I don't know if I'm right. Well, I don't really care that much. So let's say Einsworth. Uh, she was a developmental psychologist, but she um she took a lot of her insight from another psychologist. Uh, his name is John Bowler. Yeah, Bowler. Bullby.
SPEAKER_01Bowler. Bullby. Bullby. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm butchering everyone's name. Okay, that's totally fine. Um, and he created attachment theory. And so she created the attachment styles based on this theory. And I know that she did something called the Strange Situation Experiment. I don't know too much about it, but it was an experiment with like actual infants. And when they cried, having a parent do different things, like approach them differently every single time, and then seeing how they responded.
SPEAKER_01Oh my God.
SPEAKER_03And then that poor little creature. I know, I know. And so they like tracked those children growing up and saw what happened. And so, like, that's essentially what what they were. And I think that she only came up with three attachment styles. I think it was just anxious, avoidant, and secure. And then um two other, I think, psychotherapists in like the 80s or 90s came up with disorganized, which makes sense. It's we'll we'll talk more about that. Yeah, like a blend of the two of those, anxious and avoidant.
SPEAKER_01I know that a lot of that research is rooted in um what's called object relations, which is like like, and this I see a lot in my work with people with food because food is an object. And so what object relations means, and I'm probably gonna butcher this, but I I do my best. So object relations essentially before you can form like very distinct concepts, you form more broad concepts. And those concepts help you, and this is like in early infancy and things like that. Those concepts help you understand where you end and where something else begins. And you also learn then the boundaries of those objects. So like where the object begins and where it ends. And by object, I mean something like your mother or your concept of safety or your concept of love or your whatever that may be. And so when like you don't feel an object relations is very well implicated in borderland personality disorder. Um, and so when you don't feel that level of security, you know, between between the caregiver and the child, then what will end up happening is you will not relate to that object or the concept of that object as secure. And so in that way, mother relates to food because mother is the original source of food. Right. And so we tend to see when we work with people who have varying styles of attachment, their relationship with food and their relationship with their mother parallels almost.
SPEAKER_03Oh, interesting. It's so cool. I've never thought about that, but that makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_01It's incredible. I mean, you will notice, and we'll talk more about like what attachment styles are, and maybe we should probably get into that now. But like, like you'll notice that people who have avoidant attachment also have avoidant attachment with food. People who have anxious attachment also have anxious attachment with food. Okay, so let's talk about what attachment styles are.
SPEAKER_03So there's anxious attachment style, which is sometimes also known as preoccupied. There is avoidance. Avoidant, also known as dismissive. Yeah. There's disorganized. Yes, which is fearful avoidance. I've also heard it be called chaotic.
SPEAKER_01Chaotic. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03Chaotic, which it is very chaotic. So chaotic. And then lastly, secure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which is the one we're always striving for. Secure is pure.
SPEAKER_03Secure is pure.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Let's start with anxious. What do you think is an anxious attachment style and how does that show up for somebody?
SPEAKER_01Oh my God. Okay. So for an anxious attachment style, that is where a person doesn't, it's almost like they don't have emotional object permanence and they don't trust that there's going to be continuity between so when we're talking about relating to another, they don't trust that there's going to be continuity in consistency. Yes. No consistency, no continuity in like contact, in warmth, in presence, in um like the way the person relates to them. They expect it to not be stable. They expect it to well, they they expect it to not be secure. And so their response to that is to instead of pull away, move toward in a way that is like push towards. Yes, exactly. It's a push toward. It's like it's like a very like, oh my God, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. Because so, like, for example, and this is like this is a classic story. So people who are on like especially in our digital age, people who are texting their partners and you know, early on in the dating situation, like they are responding to the partner is responding to every text. They're responding to like every social media post, they are like answering within 30 seconds, that kind of thing. And then they get busy, potentially busy one day, or they just start to lose interest. And the anxious person will notice that immediately. Immediately. They will sense that change of energy. And they're so sensitive. So sensitive, so sensitive. And like that is such a good tool uh tool to have in your body. Like that is such a good signal finder. But when you use it in a relational context that is not like bringing out the best in you, it is absolutely fucking crazy making. It is crazy making to have anxious attachment and like be obsessed with like tracking somebody's moods. Yes. And that's that's what ends up becoming. And like it, this is like how people become like controlling and clamp down and they like you know, I think like clamp and flasp. Yes, like they white knuckle, exactly. They're like, oh my god, please, it takes me back. And it's like it, you can, but they sense the change, and more often than not, they're correct. But also, and we'll talk more about this as we get into it, they tend to pair with, you know, the avoidance. So avoidant like doesn't really necessarily make everything transparent. No. And so what will end up happening is with this anxious attachment, they will clamp down, they will hold tight, they will grip, and then they will lose sight of themselves in favor of paying attention to the other person. And so they don't even have a secure attachment with themselves. Yes, because they erase themselves. They erase themselves. And a lot of people with BPD have anxious attachment.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Unless it's like extreme BPD, then it's like disorganized. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like a lot of like the more like the quiet BPD kind of like that's very it tends to relate with anxious. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. I've I've definitely seen that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01For sure. Yeah. And what I see with food, people who have anxious attachment, they tend to have more of like a binging relationship with food, or they have like an obsessive relationship with numbers. So the scale, the calories, the macros. Yes. It's a really interesting thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That that makes so much sense. Again, ha I have never thought of it, but it makes so much sense. Yes. I'm big on that anxious is a fear of abandonment.
SPEAKER_01It is such a fear of abandonment. It is such a fear of abandonment. And it comes from that inconsistent caregiver, right? Yeah. Mother who was sometimes there when you would cry and other times wasn't. And when you're like negative one years old, you don't know how to make sense of that. All you know is you think you're fucking dying. Yeah. And so your nervous system as an adult, when that person doesn't text you back, or when their warmth changes, or when they give you like a really short response or something like that, you're like, oh, I'm fucking dying again. Bye. I guess it's over. Bye.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it's in inconsistency, is the 100% the key to it. And I've actually realized that a lot of adult children of alcoholics tend to have an anxious attachment style. Absolutely. Because alcoholics tend to have they can be so fun one minute, and then the next minute they can be so down or mean or violent. And so oftentimes people that grow up in that environment will have an anxious attachment style because it's they they learn the inconsistency and then they crave the closeness, they crave the reassurance, they really, really crave the consistency, but they go about it by trying to white knuckle it. Yeah like we talked about.
SPEAKER_01They just like everything must be in its perfect little place and it must be perfectly controlled. And if there's any deviation from it, what the fuck are you doing?
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I feel like that's why they like overthink relationships. They look for signs that like somebody is pulling away when sometimes they're not. And then, like we said, they're so highly sensitive. It's the most subtle shit. Any type of like relationship shift, communication changes, they feel like threatened anytime their partner wants to take space. They're just like, oh, they don't want me anymore. Yeah, they're abandoning me. I need to hold on to this for dear life, or else, like you said, I will die. Die. Yes. And I feel like people with this belief very much feel like the people that I love will leave me. So I need to do anything possible to make sure that they don't leave me.
SPEAKER_01Yes. That's two core beliefs right there. That's the people I love will leave and I must stop them.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes, exactly. And they'll do anything.
SPEAKER_01Like exactly, exactly. And like instead of being willing to like again, use that sensitivity as something to inform you, as a signal, as information that hey, maybe this relationship isn't for you. It becomes no, no, no, no, no. There's not nine billion people on this earth. There is exactly one, and it's this person, and I need them. And if I don't have them, and it that is exactly what you would expect an infant to think like. If an infant had thoughts that we could read on a piece of paper, it would be that too. And it has to. Yes, exactly. Because they are in actual survival mode. Like if there's not a good caregiver, they fucking die.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, 100%. But I feel like more oftentimes than not, the core belief isn't this person is abandoning me. Oh my gosh, they're the worst. And it's always it's I'm the worst. I'm too much. I'm not enough. Yes. One of those two. It always devolves. And it becomes probably both. Typically both. Which doesn't even make sense. But this a lot of times the logic leaves this style. It can just be too much for somebody else, especially somebody that doesn't relate to it. Yes. And somebody that has never felt the anxious preoccupied, or somebody that's avoidant. You know, this is going to trigger more avoidant tendencies in somebody else. Sometimes even somebody that maybe grew up with a secure attachment style, this can sometimes create avoidant because they feel trapped, they feel suffocated. Yes. And a lot of times that is what unfortunately what somebody with an anxious attachment style does. They end up suffocating other people because they're like grasping, they're white knuckling, they're texting a million times. Yes. If any of our girlies have realized that they have an anxious attachment style, just from listening to us, what is your advice to them?
SPEAKER_01Oh, go to therapy. It's always going to be go to therapy, but it's also going to be don't, and we'll talk about like how to identify it early in dating, but like do not date somebody with an avoidant attachment style until you are fluent in how to communicate with that attachment style. Like just don't end up in that kind of relationship because you're always going to feel unfulfilled. Yes. You will always feel unfulfilled. Yeah. And part of the way that you get to a place where you can receive the fulfillment that you're actually looking for rather than chasing it. Right. Because women, we don't chase, we receive exactly. But the problem is an anxious attachment makes you fucking chase, you know? And so what you have to do is learn your signs of when you're chasing. That can be things like texting, texting, texting, texting, just constantly, nonstop, all the time. That can be things like putting like he, he or she or whoever texts you and you had plans to like do some self-care tonight and do whatever. You're like, hey, what are you up to? Nothing. Nothing, nothing. Wanna hang out? Let's hang out. I want to hang out. And then you erase again, erase. Notice when you're erasing yourself for the sake of what feels like it would be attachment that works for you because it's never ever ever gonna actually hit the spot. Right. It's never gonna give you what you need.
SPEAKER_03So how A life and a self-concept and a personality outside your relationship.
SPEAKER_01Always the most concise way I could put it. Exactly. Very succinct. Exactly. Exactly. Like exist. Don't erase yourself. Exist. Yes. Be. Yeah. You know, and like learn to be comfortable with just yourself. Learn to love spending time with yourself. Love spending money on yourself. Love spending energy on yourself. Love flourishing. Like love yourself. Yeah. Love yourself. Because that is the only way. It's reparenting, right? Like it's the only way that you can heal from this shit. You didn't get what you needed younger. And that sucks. But if you heal yourself, you won't go chasing after people who just pull away from you. Right. And if people do pull away from you and they come back into your life, you don't have to say yes to them.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah. Like have have boundaries, know who has triggered you and why. And it's it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a bad person, but it probably means that maybe they're not the person for you.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Also, you need to not treat reassurance like it's a drug. So stop treating that like it's just like a hit that you need, like you just like need another hit of it.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03And also just give it to yourself. You know, that's a a lot of times people with anxious attachment styles don't know how to give their themselves validation. They don't trust themselves often. They don't know how. No, they don't know how. Um, and it also sometimes becomes reinforced when they go for the wrong person.
SPEAKER_01Intermittently reinforced, which is even more addictive.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, I think also like separating fact from fiction. Because a lot of times with the anxious attachment style, a storyline will start to come up. And it's a storyline that is centered around their internalized core beliefs, which is like that, like I need to earn love and I need to deserve love. And this person doesn't love me, probably because I'm not deserving it. So I need to be better. And also like I think distress toler tolerance in helping you deal with uncertainty. Yeah. And then just knowing how to deal with it. If somebody's inconsistent, it doesn't mean that you need to just be like, okay, well, they're just inconsistent.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03It's okay to say, I don't like inconsistency. So this is a boundary that I'm setting. Either you need to be consistent or you need to fuck off. That's okay. But um, and I think that that a lot of times is somebody with who had an anxious attachment style who now is more secure, they just realize that this is something that can trigger them because oftentimes you can become secure, but something can trigger you back into and you can regress absolutely into the old attachment style.
SPEAKER_01So it's a really good sign that you're again like with somebody who's not right for you. Like when somebody triggers your regression, exactly. When somebody triggers your regression, it's a good sign that you're not moving to your highest and hottest self. You're moving to the lower version of you. And that's not fun, man. That shit sucks. We don't do that here. We don't do that here because we are hot girls. We are hot girls.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Talk to me about avoidant attachment.
SPEAKER_03I feel like in a nutshell, the way that an anxious, somebody with an anxious attachment style fears abandonment. Somebody with an avoidant attachment style fears rejection. Rejection. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Which is different. Sometimes they can feel similar, but the way that this looks is that somebody with an avoidant attachment style often pulls away. They retreat, they emotionally isolate.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03They they punish themselves. They punish themselves. They absolutely punish themselves. They reject you before you can't fire me. I fucking quit. Yeah, exactly. Oh exactly. I will reject you before you can reject me. Yeah. And you will never be able to reject me because you will never truly know me. And nobody can ever reject me if nobody ever really knows me.
SPEAKER_01I feel like you just read me, your soul. Maybe. Maybe. I'm literally, I can tell, I can tell you have a buoyant and I have anxious because we're like speaking from the heart when we talk about these things. That's so good. Yeah. 100%.
SPEAKER_03Well, I they're just they're so uncomfortable with having needs, with having emotional needs specifically.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And they hate relying on other people because they were conditioned to believe that vulnerability will always be rejected and that people are not safe and that they can't be vulnerable. Relied on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That when I call, they won't come. So I will never call again.
SPEAKER_01Oh my God. So is it like a is it like a shame on me if you fool me once and you'll never ever ever be allowed to do that a second time?
SPEAKER_03100%. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a very um, and I I love that that's such a saying because it's such an avoidance saying, you know. Yeah, it's yeah, versus like, I feel like disorganized attachments like fool me once, I'll let it go, fool me twice, I'll burn your fucking house down.
SPEAKER_01Wait. I relate to her. We'll get to that. We'll get to her. We'll still get to her.
SPEAKER_03So it is the opposite of an an anxious attachment style. Yeah. So where the anxious attachment style craves closeness, the avoidant fears it. It's a lot of fear with it. That's why yeah, fearful, avoidant, dismissive avoidant. They tend to be emotionally distant, they tend to be independent, they tend to shut down during conflict.
SPEAKER_01So they erase themselves too.
SPEAKER_03They erase themselves too, but in such a different way. Such a different way. They erase their needs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03They also a lot of times will erase your needs. They'll erase the needs of others. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They they erase they erase need across the board. If I don't need you, you don't need me. If you don't need me, I don't need you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And a lot of times that'll look like just emotionally, just difficulty expressing feelings, difficulty expressing any type of need.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like they're just so uncomfortable with it. And they also oftentimes will perceive rejection where rejection is not there.
SPEAKER_01Which is its own form of like safety for me.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it's 100% a protective mechanism. This attachment style is very, very self-protective because it's been very hurt, very jaded. And I feel like the core belief of this one is if I get close to somebody, they will hurt me. So I won't get close.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So this so this this attachment style, like I mean, well, I guess anxious also doesn't get close because they erase themselves, but they don't realize that they're not getting close because they feel like they're getting close by chasing. Yeah. And so this attachment style.
SPEAKER_03Well, anxious chases avoidant runs.
SPEAKER_01Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. So toward in a way. Towards in a way. Yeah. Yeah. They just like go in a fucking circle. Yes. Yes. Yes. And never actually accomplish anything, which is that makes so much sense given the cycle, right? Yeah. The cycle of relationship ups and downs. Yeah. So okay, so so avoidant attachment. Um what do you feel like what's what's like the core experience that leads to avoidant attachment?
SPEAKER_03Oftentimes it is formed in early childhood. Again, any of these attachment styles can be formed at any point in your life with like trauma, toxic relationships. But in early childhood, it is somebody that is in an environment where emotional vulnerability is not accepted, not celebrated.
SPEAKER_01And not even just rejected, but just like not even like there's no warmth for it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's there's no there's no warmth for it. And then in a more extreme scenario, emotional vulnerability or crying is met with punishment or shame or physical abuse. Yeah. A lot of times, like and it you would know this if you have dated a lot of avoidance. Oh my god, almost explicitly. Yeah. I I have dated one. Well, two, but one for a long time. One was like, I don't avoidant wouldn't even cover it. Like it's so abusive, like I don't even know what like Yeah, I know I get that. Yeah, I guess. Um, but uh like genuinely like somebody with an avoidant attachment style. And sometimes it can look like somebody like not wanting physical closeness. So like literally like not even like wanting touch, like not um not wanting to hang out that much, not like texting you back. But a lot of times they can do all of those things, almost like do all of the things on paper because they still do want a relationship, but they'll avoid the actual emotional intimacy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so like they'll go through the emotions, but they won't actually open themselves up.
SPEAKER_03Yes, they'll never actually let you love them.
SPEAKER_01Let you love them.
SPEAKER_03Let you say more about that. Yeah. Well, they'll never truly let themselves love you, but they'll also never let you love them because rejection is totally a valid fear. But when you avoid rejection, you also avoid connection.
SPEAKER_01When you avoid rejection, you also avoid connection. I love that. So two sides of the same coin. Okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. So so basically, anxious is Icarus flies too close to the sun and avoidant is Icarus is afraid of flying toward the sun.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And isn't even gonna try. Yes. It it it it is, it is I have been burned.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It is uh I have been burned.
SPEAKER_01Icarus tried one time when Icarus was like two and was like, fuck this shit again.
SPEAKER_03Never again. Yeah, and a lot of times like they're able to rationalize it because they're like, no, I'm just smart, you know. Yeah, but what they're really doing is they're holding themselves back from ever trying. They are, yeah. They are, and they end up hurting other people too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because which is upsetting, they're they're not trying to, but be because that they end up prioritizing hyperindependence and because they deny their own needs, they don't understand yours.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. So they like don't even have a frame of reference to make sense of what it is that you have in terms of needs. Yeah. Oh my god, I feel like I'm learning so much too. This is okay. So, what do you feel like are some tips for our girlies who have avoidant attachment? Like, how how do they become the highest, hottest version of themselves?
SPEAKER_03Good question. Uh, recognize the withdraw.
SPEAKER_01What recognize the withdraw.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. When you start to feel yourself to run, when you start to feel yourself to detach, recognize that. Uh, stop interpreting needs, whether they're yours or somebody else's, as bad or negative. I think that there is kind of like a shame that comes with needs. Shame. So try, try to work with that shame and try to kind of reframe needs as something that is not negative. And then this is actually something that I do a lot. It's practice vulnerability in small doses.
SPEAKER_01So, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_03In like low-stakes situations. So, like, and I'll tell I do this on my own and I tell patients to do this all the time. Somebody that you think that you might feel safe with, because again, avoidance never truly feels safe with somebody, but somebody that you're like, okay, logically, like they're probably safe. They're not gonna like teacher spit in my face. Yes. Yes, a teacher, a friend, a family member, say something vulnerable that feels low stakes. So something that if they don't receive it well or don't respond well, you're not gonna die, you know, which you'll never actually die.
SPEAKER_01But something like that survival mode of your, you know, infant nervous system. Yes, you are.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I exactly. Yeah. But something that feels like you'll be okay. Yeah. If if it's not, and and then it becomes way more intentional and you feel more empowered by doing it. Yeah. Try to be vulnerable in small doses with certain people that you feel like may make you feel safe and then see what happens.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So be curious.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes, bring the curiosity. Yes, 100%. Be curious. And a lot of times the self-protective parts eliminate curiosity. They they don't let you be curious, they don't let you enact on your curiosities. So yeah, like that's a good tip too. Like let your curiosity you know, run wild. Um, and maybe like let uh throw out the rule book for your day and just like maybe be a little messy, maybe be a little vulnerable and see what happens. And usually no matter what, you will find out that you will be okay. And it's also some distress tolerance as well. Absolutely. Just like with the anxious attachment style, be able to accept feeling rejected and just notice it and be like, this sucks. I feel rejected right now, and it hurts, and it hurts, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, that it's not the end of the world.
SPEAKER_03It's not the end of the world. Also, another thing I just thought of feelings identification.
SPEAKER_00Say more.
SPEAKER_03So learn how, because a lot of people who have an avoidant attachment style learned that feelings are bad. They likely never learned how to identify and accept their feelings.
SPEAKER_01They just are out of touch with it.
SPEAKER_03Right. So try to throughout the day identify what your feelings are. So literally, like I'll like I'll tell people like at three points during the day. So morning, middle of the day, night, if you need to time it, if you need to set an alarm, that's fine. But say right now I'm feeling blank and make it an emotion, so not good, bad, fine. Don't do tired. Everyone likes to do tired, everyone's tired.
SPEAKER_01We're all fucking exhausted. Exhausted, okay. Life is hard.
SPEAKER_03Life is hard and then you die. Life is hard and then you die. Yeah. I say that to my cat all the time. Whenever he's whining, I'm like, oh, life is hard and then you die. I know. Um I emotionally abusing my cat.
SPEAKER_01I think he emotionally abuses you too, though.
SPEAKER_03What? Oh, my cat. Yes, he does. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I'm fine with it. I I have an anxious avoidance attachment. So I have never had it with or I anxious, not avoidant ever actually with him. It's an anxious attachment. So with my cat. I've never had it towards anybody else.
SPEAKER_00Avoidant with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because cats are avoidant, which sucks. But I'm like, I love you. Love me back, please. Um, and sometimes like when he does something bad, Jake will try to punish him. And I'm like, no, and I'm like, but then he won't want to be here anymore.
unknownOh my god.
SPEAKER_03You're erasing yourself. No needs. No needs. And a lot of times, if you have an avoidant attachment style, you think that somebody's like you sometimes interpret that somebody's reducting you or somebody's suffocating you, or somebody it's always the other person they're doing something that you need to run from. But a lot of times you're not running from the other person, you're running from yourself.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Exactly. And what you're running from is the fact that you have needs. Yes. Like you, but the thing is you can't. That you're human. You're running from being human. Yes. And you can't outrun that. Yeah. And like that's that's the folly of humans is like they they in in these non-secure attachment styles, they're trying to outrun their own humanity. Yeah. Always. Either they're chasing, they're chasing and forgetting their own humanity, or they're trying to outrun their own humanity, or they are like eating their own tail like an Ouroboros, trying to erase the humanity. Yes. Yeah. For sure. Which is very much that disorganized, which I can't wait to talk about disorganized.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let's let's talk about that. Oh, okay. Tell me, tell me your thoughts on disorganized attachment.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So disorganized attachment is like um if Anxious and Avoidant had a baby and they just like went back and forth between the two.
SPEAKER_03It's like the And then they neglected the baby, but then also sometimes we're really there for the baby.
SPEAKER_01And then they also abused the baby when they didn't want to have the baby. Like it was just so bad. So anxious, so disorganized attachment is like um it's one of the most challenging attachment styles because it's the get away, get away, get away, no, come here, come here, come here, no, get away, get away, get away, no, come here, come here, come here.
SPEAKER_03Push, pull.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it is push, pull, and you know nothing in between. You know, no peace. Push, pull, run, run back, chase, run. Exactly. It's like the you chase, you chase, you chase, and then the love comes for you and you said, fuck you, get away from me. You know, or like you run, you run, you run, and the love chases after you, and then you start chasing back and you just like smother and suffocate. Like it's it's very you you want love, but you push it away when you're given the opportunity because you don't trust it. You don't trust that it's gonna be safe. You don't trust that it's going to be. I I used to have deep in my soul, I had such disorganized attachment, like so badly. Because I mean, fuck, I was raised by very unwell people. And like the chase, chase, chase, and then the pull away, and then the chase, chase, chase, and then the pull away, and the chase, chase, chase, and the pull away. And like just there was no, I I couldn't settle. I couldn't settle. I was I had a therapist describe it in the past as I was never okay with just being.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like I would make the decision to chase, and then I wouldn't want what I'd caught. And then I would make the decision to run away and I would be upset that I wasn't being chased back. Yeah. Or I would be upset when I would get chased back, or like I would just like it was like impossible to find any level of peace. And it's it is the That's why it's called the chaotic. Yes, yeah, disorganized chaotic. It is a, it is an impossibility. Yeah. It is an impossible situation for your nervous system. How do you think this one is formed? Really fucking abusive parents, unfortunately. Like, well, maybe not even really fucking abusive, but like typically there are echoes of abuse, neglect, like just not strong presence. And I I do think um disorganized attachment is often more that echo word again, like echoes of borderline.
SPEAKER_00Oftentimes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I see it so perfectly overlap, you know, the circumstances that cause like the like especially like a narcissistic parent because they they offer that intermittent reinforcement. And intermittent reinforcement to an infantile nervous system is like like a baby being born addicted to drugs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is a drug because it seems like real, it's love bombing. It's you know, you are love bombed and and that feels really good, and then it's taken away and then you're punished and sometimes punished very badly.
SPEAKER_01It makes no sense. Like the problem is like it makes no sense. And even when you become, like, even when you do the thing that an infant or a young nervous system will do, which is oftentimes blame itself, because if they were to say that the caregiver was bad, then what the fuck are you gonna do? Die? Like it's in your best interest to fantasy bond with your caregiver. Even if they don't actually love you or want you or whatever, it's in your best interest to fantasy bond with them. And it's in your best, and then oftentimes what will happen is the child will just blame themselves during that like um that shame versus autonomy period of time. Yeah, with that psychosocial crisis. Yes, exactly, exactly. And so, like what will happen is they will never like it it almost like necessitates the the person doesn't develop a stable sense of self because they can't find peace. They only the only peace they find is in the familiarity of chaos.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah. Yeah, which is so, so, so borderline.
SPEAKER_01So borderline. Yeah. So borderline. Yeah. Yeah. And it it's very like very overwhelming for the nervous systems of both people in the interaction.
SPEAKER_03100%. I I've always thought that like with disorganized, it's kind of like my heart is saying come closer, but my nervous system is saying run.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And then my nervous system is saying come closer, and my heart is saying run. Yes.
SPEAKER_01You know, yes, yes. And so it's interesting that you say run because like I like being an anxious push. So instead of run, it's just push away. Oh, cool. Yeah, it's well, it's not cool, but no, no, but you know what I'm saying? Yes, it's interesting. Yeah, and I I wonder actually now that we're talking about this, and I wonder, you know, maybe somebody will pick this up and figure it out, but I think that there's probably subtypes. There's like dismissive leading anxious and dismissive leading avoidant. Yes. 100%. Right. Cause like I I was definitely I'm definitely dismiss uh was dismissive leading anxious when I like where it would be a push away rather than a run. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've definitely I I've always shown up more traditionally avoidant, but I've definitely had disorganized before in different relationships. Yeah. And it kind of always felt like I was like reaching for connection with one hand and then trying to protect myself with the other hand. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Almost like reaching it and then like yay, punching somebody with the other hand. Yeah. So that's what I mean by the push. Like it would, it would be like I would, I would want, but I would like throw a can at your head. I I never actually did that physically, but like I envision like somebody throwing something at somebody being like, Fuck you. Yeah. Get away from me. Like I want that, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah. But I want to throw it at you and still love me.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Like literally, like and then I'm gonna hate you for loving me. Yes. But still do it. Yes, because you you hate yourself, and so you're gonna hate people who love you. Yes, yeah. Yeah. And that's that, but that that in and of itself you learn from that caregiver too. Yeah. So like you think that's love. Yes. You think hating yourself is love.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Very, very astute. Yeah. Speaking of, so you said that you've definitely flown into this. Yes. Into this attachment style. What is your experience with attachment styles? How have they evolved? Where are you at now?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's interesting. I feel like um, so the times that I was disorganized, I was with somebody who was disorganized. And it was that sucks. I just, it was, I'm like picturing it. No, it's it's the worst one. It's the one that I talked about in the first season, you know, where the guy tried to kill me. Like it was chaos. Um it was just pure chaos. It was chaotic. And um that pushed me. It's interesting. Like I've changed throughout time. So like I think I was anxious from the majority of my childhood, then and sometimes disorganized, but I wasn't often offered um security from somebody. So it was often just anxious. And then during marriage, it was both it was avoidant and secure. So I would, so my my ex-husband was anxious. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, so he triggered avoidant and triggered avoidant at me.
SPEAKER_01It was really interesting. But then I also was disorganized because I couldn't stay avoidant very long. It was way too uncomfortable for my nervous system. I would always eventually move either way back to what you know. Yeah, absolutely. Because like I'm not really a rejecte kind of person. Um, and I like I think I made peace with rejection at a younger age.
SPEAKER_03Um good for you.
SPEAKER_01Can't relate. It's not an ideal thing to fucking make peace with. It sucks. Um, at least at a young age it sucks. But then um I like after the then I was very disorganized after that marriage was over. Um, and I ended up with that awful guy. And then I like I would flow in and out of anxious and avoidant, and now I'm definitely I relate as secure to start, and I will kind of like go through waves in an early like connection that are sometimes anxious and then sometimes avoidant, and then I will always land back at secure. So, like over like maybe the first few months, I'll start as secure, and then as my feelings rise, I'll feel really like I'll want to be avoidant actually first. And then as I see the feelings being met, I'll start to feel anxious. And then as I see the feelings being consistent, I remain secure. And if I see them being inconsistent, but consistently inconsistent, I remain secure. If they become intermittent reinforcement, I remain secure within myself and pull away and just say, like, this is in for me. This connection's not gonna work. So it sounds like a cycle that you've like very much identified. Yes, because I think I I think my heroine was relationships that were toxic. Like I think in every way. My my one of my long-term, my little my long-term best friends is sitting over there, like nodding. She's like, Yes, yes. It's so true. Um, it's it's something that like very much has followed me like the majority of my life, was just kind of like trying to relate comfortably to others and erasing or engulfing or enmeshing or like push-pulling until I got the result that I wanted or well that I wanted, but not necessarily the result that I needed. Yes. Yeah. What about you? How do you feel like your trajectory has gone?
SPEAKER_03Um, I don't want to blame anybody that I've been avoidant and like noticeably avoidant since like preschool. I don't want to point fingers, but I don't charge me in preschool. I don't want to point fingers, but yeah, so I think it happened incredibly young, and I can imagine why it makes sense why. Yeah, I like have never felt comfortable showing emotions, showing vulnerability, showing my cards. And when I was young, that looked like not saying anything.
SPEAKER_02You were quiet.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I was so quiet. I was just like, whatever I say will be rejected. So I'm not going to say anything every year.
SPEAKER_01You rejected yourself. You can't fire me, I quit.
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, you can't fucking hate me. You don't even know me. I don't even talk. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was it was a lot of that. And then as I got older, I figured out like more like adaptable ways of doing that because people didn't like that I didn't talk. And then that also caused rejection. So it was like time to, you know, do something else, I guess. Um, none of this was conscious, by the way. Well, it's conscious that smart of a child. Um and but yeah, like I guess I just like found like more like a more adaptable way. And it was just like only show people certain parts, only show people a certain side. Yeah. Maybe make them believe that they've seen vulnerability when they haven't actually, and like don't say like certain things. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. There's um in parts work a lot of times we talk about like a manager, yeah, and it's like somebody that's running the show, and one of my biggest ones is the quieter. Ooh, and uh a lot of times, don't say that. Yes, yes, you exactly don't say that. She's very calculated and together. Love it, love it.
SPEAKER_02I'm very happy for you, but I love it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, she's uh she's definitely gotten better, and I've realized too, she's not always just like shut the fuck up. A lot of times she's just like, no, let's say this better. And so and she's getting more protective. Yeah, she she helps me a lot. She's always tried to be protective. I think just now she she could because she's more evolved, she helps me more than she hurts me. And that's you know what parts are supposed to do.
SPEAKER_01But and you probably also listen better to her, too.
SPEAKER_03I do, yeah, 100%. And a lot of that is just we call it befriending the parts, and it's just whenever you make the parts seen, sometimes they calm down. Yes. But if you tell them, like, stop it, I want to do like I hate you, you're ruining my life, then they get louder. Of course they do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because you're you're like rejecting them.
SPEAKER_03Right. Rejection. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Your nervous system is like rejection. No, no, no, no, no. We don't fuck with that.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Oh gosh, your parts probably have attachment styles. Somebody needs to study that.
SPEAKER_01That's so annoying. I don't even want to think about that. Oh that's probably how people flow in and out of different attachment styles is like through their different parts.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, through their different parts you all want to have. Yeah, because relationships definitely trigger different parts in us. 100%. They absolutely do. Um, but I actually remember my aunt, I was in like I was like a preteen at this point. But she she was like, she said, You're exactly like me. You always have your running shoes on and they're always laced up. Oh my and you're just running from everybody all the time.
SPEAKER_01Oh my.
SPEAKER_03That is hard. Yeah. I don't I don't think that I received it well at the time, as in I probably received it avoidantly as and I probably just like just didn't say anything, but I but I always remembered it. Actually, being with somebody else that was avoidant kind of put things into perspective, like seeing it firsthand.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03And I was very like, I was so avoidant throughout like teen years and stuff like that. And I I do think that um I hurt some of the people that I dated because of that. But being with somebody else that was avoidant and seeing it firsthand and seeing how much that sucked, I was like, oh shit. But also I didn't notice that they were avoidant when we first started dating because I was also avoidant, so they just seemed normal to me.
SPEAKER_01Oh. So like when we meet our match, we feel like almost kind of this like vibrational connection to it in a way that like feels like safety feels like yes, yes, it feels like home, but it's not.
SPEAKER_03It's it's just that I I know you, I recognize you, and that's what we've talked about. The nervous system doesn't go towards what's safe, it'll go towards what it knows. So I think, yeah, that's why I felt that it was safe because I do remember feeling like a lot of like safety when I like I grew up and I healed, and you know, I became more secure, and then I started to notice that the other person was avoidant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that sucked. And I always told him you didn't change, I did. And that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01You basically healed while you were with somebody.
SPEAKER_03I agree with you. And yeah, I feel like that's when I moved towards secure, and it was interesting. I like when I met Jake, I started to notice the first ever like what was that like urges of uh well, it was crazy. It was so interesting, like for like secure, but I started to notice a little bit of disorganized because well, I don't know if it was actually maybe it wasn't. I don't know if the avoidant even came up. It was more of the anxious things, yeah. That I and I had like started studying uh attachment styles at this point. So I knew what it was. And I remember when it was coming up, I was like, oh my gosh, that's crazy. Because like we were long distance in the beginning, and um like I'd be like, he didn't text me back, and it's been five minutes. What the fuck? Oh my god, and then I'd be like, Okay, but then oh no, you know what? It was disorganized because then I'd be like, you know what? I'm not gonna text back for two hours next time he texts me. And because I need to like play the game. Like now we're playing a game, and then it like it it went away quickly.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, because it's just a golden retriever.
SPEAKER_03Yes, but you feel disorganized with a golden retriever. He's securely attached, and that's what you were talking about of like when like people who are securely attached can be very healing to be with, even if they're not your person, Jake happened to be my person, but um they can heal so many parts of you because you're like, oh, this is what it's supposed to be, this is what it's supposed to look like.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_03And it was definitely it was just like almost uncomfortable at first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but again, like the anxious tendencies, like at first I was like, oh my god, this is crazy, this is so bad. And then I wanted to retreat, and then I'd be like, fuck that. And then once I just noticed them and stopped being like, This is crazy, then it calmed down. And you were willing to notice enough. Yeah. That like so he was 100% consistent, and that's why I was anxious because I was like perceiving a threat where there wasn't one. And that was the first time that I had ever really done that.
SPEAKER_01Or how do you notice like yourself currently when it comes to friendships? Like, so for example, our friendship, like did you what what what wave did you find yourself on?
SPEAKER_03I shouldn't tell you.
SPEAKER_02Nobody shouldn't know.
SPEAKER_03I feel like nobody should tell. I know it is so avoidant. It is so avoidant. I love it. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess it's similar to the trajectory of most people, is like I I didn't trust you in the beginning, and I don't trust anybody in the beginning. And then I'll have to it's not it, I don't know. I don't like the like you people need to earn trust. Like you don't you don't need to like work to be friends with me. Sure. But it's more of just like not being an asshole over and over again, basically. That's like that's all I require.
SPEAKER_01That's all it takes to make you happy, is just like don't be an asshole.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, literally, just don't be an asshole ever.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna get like a hundred out of a hundred.
SPEAKER_03Like that's so easy. Yes. I I really I actually am, I feel like very easy in friendships. Yeah. And I don't, again, like, and maybe this is avoidant, but I don't like uh I tend not to like people who are like super critical. I also don't give me criticism, but if I didn't fucking ask for it, I would never give you that. I would never even give you advice if you didn't ask for it.
SPEAKER_01That's actually so real. Yeah, it is. That really is you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, you're so right. So like I don't I don't need that. Ever giving you advice. I don't like that in return. Uh I've asked you for advice and you've given it. That's fair.
SPEAKER_01But I can't imagine ever giving it to you unsolicited. I'm like, this bitch knows what the fuck she's doing. She doesn't need my advice out of nowhere. She's fine. Thank you. Yeah, that's also that's me responding to your avoidant attachment.
SPEAKER_03Well, I also I I think that's probably like a professional skill that's that you have. So that's too. I because I think it's a professional skill for me as well. Of like, yeah, like you don't tell people your opinion on something that they're doing unless one they ask or one it's real bad. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And you're like, you know, there's so much medical stuff in nutrition where it's like, I actually have to tell you my opinion on this. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03I've and I've said that to to patients before. I'm like, I'm like, hey, I don't usually give my opinion, but right here I have to. This is bad. Yes. And I'll be like, I don't unless it's bad and this is bad.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03And I I I have done that. But um, but yeah, like a lot of times it's just like not not trusting people until they just like prove that like they're, you know, not an asshole. And and that then that's that. But I also I will uh we kind of talked about this in the playing the game episode. Yes. I'll give people little uh doses of vulnerability and I'll see what they'll do with it.
SPEAKER_01You test the waters. I test the waters. You test to see if you're safe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, like normal. That's what people do. Yeah, it's avoidant, but I don't think it's bad. That's why like these attachment styles aren't bad. Not at all. Just make them evolved.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, always find your higher self in them. And like always know that they are like attachment style is not, and I think you mentioned this earlier, like attachment style is not set in stone. It is literally a journey. Yeah, like you can look at it as a timeline, you know, and like it evolves over time and it changes over time, and it you do regress sometimes, you do evolve forward sometimes. And you know, what's really cool is like seeing how like my attachment style with you versus my attachment style with this person versus my attachment style with this person, like it can differ depending on sort of like what they bring out in you.
SPEAKER_03Uh of course, absolutely. Yeah, and people can trigger different things. It doesn't necessarily mean that their relationship or friendship can't exist, but it needs to be addressed at the very least. Okay. Lastly, yes. What are some tips that you would give to our girlies in terms of moving towards a secure attachment style? Cry.
SPEAKER_01Oh cry. Cry and meditate and cry and meditate and cry and meditate. I feel like literally this show could probably be called Emily says cry and meditate. I'm I'm surprised you didn't say cry, meditate, masturbate. Cry, meditate. Actually, I really do think masturbation should be included. Cry, meditate, masturbate, eat a good meal.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. That's so you. That is oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That that should be your Instagram bio. Because that is so you can't be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01Masturbating, eating a good meal. Yeah. Hashtag Emily.
SPEAKER_03Yes, hashtag Emily. Literally. Hashtag Emily that's spelled like Amalia, just so you all know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a lot of, it's like somebody stuck their hand in a scrabble bag and pulled out a bunch of random letters and said, This is something. I said, This this spells Emily, right? Kind of, I guess. Um, yeah, so I feel like just like doing things in your body that help you process your emotions is the way to fucking change your attachment style. Finding having an identity, deciding on that identity, moving toward that identity, self-concept, self-fucking concept. Like we talked about that so much in our first season, just in in various ways. And then we had our entire episode on it. Like it, it is so important to have some sense of stability in your self-concept, something that you maintain consistency in that does not one abandon you. And two, you don't reject it. Right. We're looking at both anxious and avoidant there respectively. You don't let it abandon, you don't abandon it and you don't reject it. If you have something that's consistent about you, you're going to be secure about it.
SPEAKER_03Period.
SPEAKER_01Right. So like you, like you know that you're a good therapist. And I guarantee you that you have secure attachment with every single one of your clients. Yeah. Because like becoming a becoming a caregiver teaches you how to be secure. You know? That's interesting. It does, though. It does. Because like, how have you ever had an un an insecure attachment with your clients? Like aside from maybe that like first internship year when you're like, you know, learning how to like not take things personally. But like outside of that, like it doesn't exist. Not even then. Not even a little bit, not even a little bit. And what ends up happening is like if you can find a level of security within yourself, you will move towards security with others. Inevitably.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. What are your tips? I do feel like a secure attachment is being able to love deeply without without erasing yourself, without abandoning yourself, without without, like you said, address rejecting yourself, without shame. The thing is that uh these tendencies will come up even if you're secure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you can be afraid in a relationship and still have healthy responses. You can still choose the healthy thing to do.
SPEAKER_01Which is consistency.
SPEAKER_03Which is consistency, absolutely. Yeah. And just and noticing it like a lot of it is mindfulness, like DBT mindfulness, noticing when it comes up, not judging when it comes up, accepting that it's there. Yeah. And then we've talked about this. Just notice it. Just let it be there. Yes. And sit with it and just be curious about it.
SPEAKER_01Like sitting with a fucking baby that is doing what it's doing and just saying, oh, that's interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You're cute. Yes, 100%. And I I think that's goes to your point of healing a lot. Maybe when you become a caregiver, and that's not to say that you need to to be healed.
SPEAKER_00But yes.
SPEAKER_03I think that it's also like again, like DBT, like learning to pause before the pattern takes over.
SPEAKER_01Pause before the pattern takes over. I like that. Yeah. I like that. Because it's a pattern. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Also like therapy. Therapy. Therapy. And and a lot of times therapy helps a lot of times in therapy, we go into the past.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03But what it does is that it helps your we create a story that lives somewhere else.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Outside of you. And it helps the nervous system understand that the past is not the present.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03That this is a story and it belongs over here. Yes. And we are in here.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03You know, and we're here, we're now. Yes. So we are here and we're now. Also a big thing too is just like we talked about like distress tolerance. Huge. I think realizing that discomfort does not always mean danger.
SPEAKER_01Discomfort does not always mean danger.
SPEAKER_03It really, it really does not. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It is learning to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_03Which is what meditation is all about. Yes, that's exactly that is exactly what meditation is all about. Sitting in the discomfort.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03I think a lot of people think that it's about clearing your mind. And it's it's not. It's not always.
SPEAKER_01No, it's like letting the fucked up shit in your brain just sit there and be. Like basically watching your inner child scream and cry and scream and cry and scream and cry and not flinching away from it.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right.
SPEAKER_01Not walking away, not leaving it to cry on its own, like letting it just be there and be uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. And it's never, I feel like it literally is never as scary as you think it'll be. No. Diving into past trauma because it'll never processing it will never be as bad as feeling it when it happened.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. I said this in their first season that it if what happened to you is 10 out of 10 bad because that's how your nervous system recorded it. Right. Processing it can get up to nine out of 10 bad, but it's never going to be never going to be the same. Never, ever, ever. Because you already fucking lived it. You already did it. You already got through the hardest part.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah, exactly. You already got and you know the story.
SPEAKER_01You know it. You know how it knows it, your mind knows it, everything.
SPEAKER_03You know how it ends. Because you're here right now. Right, exactly. Yes. I I did brain spotting recently and I went into like a like very and it was very visual and went back into like a very visual experience that I had when I was super young that I remember super vividly.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03And I was so scared to do that. And then I I was back there, I was in the room, and it wasn't scary because I was like, Oh, I know the story. I know these people. I know I know what's gonna happen next. You didn't fucking reject it. No. Well my god, you just got more secure with yourself. Yeah. Beautiful, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Beautiful.
SPEAKER_03And I was like, this is this sucks. It's gonna be sad to watch, but I know it's gonna happen. It's fine. It was almost like it was literally like watching a movie a little bit and not in a dissociative way.
SPEAKER_01That's incredible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was all it was in like a like re rewriting in uh like it just felt like such a more empowered way. And I was like, this was so scary when I was in it because I was so young, but now I'm an adult and it's not scary, and I'm not there, and I'm I'm just watching it. That's incredible.
SPEAKER_01So you you basically almost got to just like I my favorite thing about like all of these trauma healing methods is they're they're kind of like almost like you get to witness. You know, you're witnessing something that nobody else was there to witness from that perspective, and you're you're giving weight and truth and um uh value to your witnessing of it. Yes. Yes, absolutely. It's beautiful, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I feel like we've covered a lot of really, really, really in-depth stuff about attachment styles. What do you feel like is the big takeaway for you?
SPEAKER_03I think that the big takeaway for me is that you can survive being abandoned, you can survive being rejected. Yes, you can survive being left disappointed, you can survive being loved. Yes, and you're gonna be fucking fine.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes. I love that. I love that. And and to add on to it, my big takeaway is because you fucking survived it before. Otherwise, you wouldn't have ended up in that position in the first place.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. You all have already proven that you are resilient. You have already proven that you can survive pain. Yes, you will survive it again.
SPEAKER_01Always.
SPEAKER_03Whatever seems so bad and life-ruining almost never will be.
SPEAKER_01Never. Never. Oh my god. This was a good episode. I was happy to this one. I like this one. I was like very like, yes, let's talk about it. Yes, cool.
SPEAKER_03I feel like I didn't even like I like lost like my PQs.
SPEAKER_01Like I didn't even need to TV this whole time. I usually always need to feel no, literally. Yeah. I was like, I don't think I'm so focused. That's so good. We we did some good some good work this season or this episode. So tune in with us next time. I don't know what our topic is yet, but it's gonna be juicy just like these two have been. And we can't wait to see you, girlies, again.
SPEAKER_03Yes, please let us know. DM us if you have any topics that you would like us to cover.
SPEAKER_01And tell us your attachment style.
SPEAKER_03Yes, we want to know you. Yes, we love the teen.
SPEAKER_01We love the teen. Okay, perfect. Well, we will see you guys next time. And we love you, girlies.